Vital Interests: You and your colleagues at the Tanenbaum Center for Interreligious Understanding have been working for many years on Track II diplomacy, working with religious Peacemakers to bring peace and reconciliation to some of the world's most dangerous places. Can you explain to us what Track II diplomacy is?

Joyce Dubensky: I can give you my opinion on it. The term is used by different people and applied to different circumstances. It is sometimes called “backdoor” diplomacy. For me, Track II diplomacy refers to unofficial, non-governmental actors who are involved in trying to conduct some form of conflict resolution, peacebuilding, and/or security work, often at the grassroots level. It was a term that was coined by a State Department official, Joseph Montville, in the 1980’s.

VI: How would you define the religious Peacemakers you have worked with?

Joyce Dubensky: They are religious actors, meaning individuals driven by religious motivations to pursue a vision of peace. This is the definition we use at the Tanenbaum Center. The Peacemakers we work with are not necessarily people who would normally be thought of as a religious leader—clergy or someone from an established religious order.

While some are in fact traditional religious leaders, our Peacemakers often are leaders in their communities and have particular influence because of their religious identity. This reflects the reality that, for many people across the globe, religion and faith are their primary identity and core to their being.

In countries where there's ongoing violent conflict, for example in Yemen, Syria, and Afghanistan, the populations are very much identified with religion. Religious actors who are seen as acting on behalf of a religious mandate very often have the necessary influence that can be useful for peace building.

VI: Religious peacemakers have on-the-ground skills because they understand the local dynamics that have brought about violent conflicts within their societies. That kind of knowledge can go a long way in trying to reconcile people that outside official diplomacy cannot.  Have you seen that manifested in these troubled spaces around the world?

Joyce Dubensky: The truth is that peacebuilding is an action not a product. It's an effort, it's ongoing and sometimes you find a time of peace and it's a greater or lesser lived peace, and then, sometimes it falls apart. I have seen the on-the-ground skills and local knowledge you mention make a difference, and I've learned about that from the efforts of the Peacemakers we work with.  We now have 28 Peacemakers in Action from all over the world. 

VI: Do you see more successes than failures or do you see it just as peaks and troughs? Societies in which these Peacemakers are working can have periods of reconciliation but is the violence always just below the surface since the true causes haven't been addressed either by the government or the powers that control the communities?

Joyce Dubensky: I think what's interesting is the way we identify who is a religious peacemaker, and their approach to addressing some of those underlying causes. They're motivated in whatever they do, and whatever the circumstances are, to try to create a world of what I like to call a “lived peace”, which is much more holistic and just than pursuing an end to conflict and violence. Rather, it is envisioning a place where there is opportunity for education and health care, access to clean water and air—where a future is possible.  These religious individuals are not waiting for, if you will, the powers that be to mandate and fix things. They are making a difference in their communities and then, by example, trying to bring their achievements beyond their locale.

VI: If the Peacemakers are not formally religious persons, are they involved in other professions?

Joyce Dubensky: The Tanenbaum Peacemakers are an eclectic mix of religiously motivated people in different occupations. We have one Peacemaker in Colombia who's a lawyer and a very spiritual man. His work has varied according to need and where he could have an impact. He’s been everything from a lawyer getting a conscientious objection law passed in Colombia to a community leader and organizer who coordinated communities at the grassroots so that they could pool their assets and create more survival mechanisms. And at other times he has negotiated with the FARC and the paramilitaries to identify a common ground for peace.

There is another who was a clergyman in Iraq and started a healthcare clinic in Baghdad that served everyone. What they do very often depends on what is needed in that moment.

In addition, they have tremendous resilience and I would say, problem-solving skills, the capacity to say, "This is the issue of the moment. Things have changed and now, since I'm still moving toward peace, and that's my vision, what do I have to do?” And then they do it.

VI: As you look at the world today, there is sectarian violence with the Middle East a major flash point. What about other regions of the world? Do you see things evolving toward a better understanding of others in religious-oriented populations or do you see the persistence of conflict and outbreaks of violence?

Joyce Dubensky: I would say there are many good things that are happening around the world that don't get a lot of attention. Very often, the work of religious peacemakers is not recognized, not given credit, and their skills are underutilized. So, yes, I think there are reasons for hope—we definitely see that.

One of the things we support are targeted interventions by members from our Peacemakers Network. We sent Azhar Hussain, who works in a madrasa in Pakistan, to the Philippines last year to work with our Peacemaker there, and to mediate with a group who were terrorizing Christians and increasing tensions in that conflict. With his credibility as a Muslim man who works with madrassas and could reliably share knowledge from the Koran, he was able to influence them. He shared how the Prophet Mohammad had a charter that guaranteed the protection of Christians.

VI: It is good to hear about positive developments. What about the rise of right-wing populism in the world today that's disseminating hatred of religious minorities and ethnic minorities? Do you think this movement is increasing and more visual these days because various governments are giving them a forum to express their hatred and not be suppressed as they had been in the past?

Joyce Dubensky: While not suppressing extreme hate groups gives them more opportunity to attain mainstream power and influence, the issue of suppressing them also raises issues of freedom of speech and freedom of thought. There is a continuum even among hate groups and suppression is something that has consequences as well.

The reality is that there are many causes for attraction to right wing ideology. One is societal uncertainty, people feeling insecure due to change and challenges to their economic and cultural security. Another is fake news. Right-wing populism thrives on disinformation coupled with the big lie. The current tech revolution in communications methodologies allows for the repetition and dissemination of the big lie and the big lies  in ways that couldn’t be fathomed in the recent past. I think we are in a perilous time—especially for the religious communities that are often the target of right-wing hate. A major role played by religious peacemakers worldwide is how they carry a message of love that can be more powerful than hate.

VI: The intent of this forum is to make 2020 presidential candidates and the public aware of significant world issues. Promoting global religious tolerance and finding ways to further peacemaking efforts are important messages. Are there other takeaways you would like to mention?

Joyce Dubensky: Our goal is not religious tolerance - it's our starting point. I think our goal and the goal of our next president should be finding a way to manifest realistic religious freedom.

When creating policy, it is important to be aware of the data. For example, there’s data that demonstrates how countries that have more religious freedom, also have less violence and greater economic well-being. That there is a correlation between religious freedom and economic stability.

But the reality is that religious freedom is not absolute. I do believe that there are times when your religious belief and my religious belief can come into absolute conflict. Then it's a question of whose belief is the one that will be honored. I think that the approach needs to be, how can we create a solution that respects both, and to the greatest extent possible honors both, but does not allow either to totally obliterate the other.

Given all this, my advice ultimately would be, yes, support religious tolerance but with a vision that understands real-world limitations, how religious freedom actually has bottom line benefits, as well as our ethical, human rights and philosophical mandates. Then, look for ways to protect religious freedom to the greatest extent possible everywhere. And always look for the minority and protect them. You can't only have religious freedom for the majority. That's not religious freedom in practice.

VI: Perhaps religious accommodation is a better term than religious freedom?

Joyce Dubensky: That is a term that we use but usually in the workplace, where accommodation is legally required. I think pursuing a lived peace, like our Peacemakers do, involves religious freedom, a strategy of balancing to accommodate all to the greatest extent, but it’s more than that. It is the work of religious peacebuilding, and secular and humanitarian peacebuilding, and human rights and development, which often use overlapping techniques and address many of the same issues. All of these individuals are building a lived peace, which includes religious freedom and accommodation but is not limited to that. And while there are a couple of things that religious peacemakers can do that are distinct, most of the techniques and issues overlap—which means that there should be even greater collaboration among the secular actors and the religious peacebuilding actors to achieve a bigger, holistic vision of freedom, justice and a lived peace.

Joyce S. Dubensky is the CEO of the Tanenbaum Center for Interreligious Understanding, a globally recognized thought leader in combating religious violence and hatred by tackling religious bullying of students, harassment in workplaces, and disparate health treatment for people based on their beliefs. Dubensky helps makes the world safer through Tanenbaum’s work with religious peacemakers in armed conflicts worldwide and by working closely with Tanenbaum’s Peacemakers in Action Network to enhance knowledge exchange, dialogue, and collaborative efforts for peace. Internationally, Dubensky presents trainings and workshops for audiences at the United Nations, USIP, the Alliance for Civilizations, Harvard Divinity School, Georgetown’s Berkley Center for Religion, Peace & World Affairs, the University of San Diego’s Joan B. Kroc Institute for Peace and Justice, the Angelicum Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas in Rome, Italy, among others. Dubensky holds a J.D. from New York University School of Law, where she graduated with honors, and a Master’s degree in American History from Adelphi University.